Forever knowledge. Learning may take forever.

[Binaural]

Perhaps it wasnt aimed at how to get the height of the building, but just maybe he wondered how to order a crane

Great for parties, I hear

Back on topic... Skills in physics, maths and chemistry are the basic underpinning of all engineered systems.

I complained like everyone else when we were taught straight theory for nearly the whole first half of my mechatronics engineering degree but I am glad I was exposed to all that now. Too many in the control software industry don't have any special knowledge of physics or mathematics even if their knowledge of electrical systems is up to scratch.

 

[rsdoran]

Condescending

Y'all realize that you are using years of experience along with your educaction to be condescending arse's.?

Many that ask questions are not engineers or engineering student, therefore they may not have studied the math, physics, and logic to the extent you have. I will not argue that it is not helpful BUT for some it is not necessary...overall.

Engineering is not the end all be all to everything, some of us are just technicians/maintenance/repair personnel that HAVE TO know how plcs' work but are not always involved in the programming or design of the system.

As educated and experienced people instead of being so condescending realize that many have not had your opportunities or have not had the option to learn OR experience what you have.

To give an example of LIFE, my parents died approximately 4 months apart when I was 13. This type situation is not conducive to opportunities that others may have.

I agree that what was stated is a foundation for some in this field but learning it pre or post may depend on the situation.

I am not religious per se but there is a saying "There for the Grace of God goes I." It does not matter if there is a God or not, the fact is that whatever factor is involved you could have been that person.

I have noticed that some of the more experienced and knowlegeable engineers etc have very poor spelling and grammatical skills. Some have a tendency, at times I have too, to point this out to new posters but not to those that have established theirself. If you expect good grammar etc from new posters then tell the others the same thing...DO NOT PLAY FAVORITES.

I do not care how much you know, how much experience you have, or if you are smarter than me...I am not going away.

I am also aware that I do not always properly structure sentences etc but in many cases I modify the sentences in a manner which I think will emphasize the statement involved.

BTW I was called a non-developmental person. I have a secret which involves WHY I can be semi-retarded or retired... take your pick.

 

[Binaural]

rsdoran,

I think you need to relax mate. Peter's point (and my own) is that science, especially the fundamental sciences, are essential knowledge to those dealing with complex automated systems. This can be as simple as understanding the difference between modulating flow or pressure when controlling the flow of a gas when tuning a system, or controlling the temperature in an aluminum smelter. You definitely need science skills to design something, but they are bloody useful for troubleshooting as well. Maths, physics and chemistry skills are useful and universal, however you pick them up.

Not a single post so far has been condescending towards you or others, so don't be so insecure. Giving good advice should not be considered condescending, or else boards like this would not exist.

Also, none of the other posters mentioned spelling or grammar so I have no idea why you brought that up. For the record, I don't look down on people with poor spelling or borderline punctuation provided they can get their message across clearly enough and have something relevant to say. Excellent writing skills can't hide weak reasoning or analytical skills, but they can enhance how well other understand you.

 

[rsdoran]

I think you need to relax mate. Peter's point (and my own) is that science, especially the fundamental sciences, are essential knowledge to those dealing with complex automated systems.

I do not need to relax. Learning the sciences is helpful and probably makes you better BUT it is not essential, to state that is condescending because you obtained an education that others may not have been able too AND some of those OTHERS may be just as good as you in many situations.

The other aspect is that "technicians" per se are not taught the same way engineers are. YES, it may be better to learn the sciences but that is not always the ONLY way to learn and in some cases the most appropriate.

As far as the grammar/spelling issue goes, those involved understand.

 

[Binaural]

I do not need to relax. Learning the sciences is helpful and probably makes you better BUT it is not essential, to state that is condescending because you obtained an education that others may not have been able too AND some of those OTHERS may be just as good as you in many situations.

The other aspect is that "technicians" per se are not taught the same way engineers are. YES, it may be better to learn the sciences but that is not always the ONLY way to learn and in some cases the most appropriate.

As far as the grammar/spelling issue goes, those involved understand.

Technicians and engineers are not taught in the same way because they generally do different roles in building and maintaining systems, so we agree there. But the end goal of both is the same - reliable, productive, working factories, production lines etc. That's why engineers need to have practical knowledge and why technicians need to know some physics. Technicians who know nix about physics and maths are pretty limited troubleshooters, especially when faced with a complex process, sequence or hardware. You don't need a university education to understand basic science, just an open and enquiring mind.

By the way, be very clear that nobody here is being condescending to technicians or those with a limited formal education or claiming they are less competent in a particular role, so please stop complaining about it.

 

[allscott]

rsdoran,

I think you need to relax mate. Peter's point (and my own) is that science, especially the fundamental sciences, are essential knowledge to those dealing with complex automated systems. This can be as simple as understanding the difference between modulating flow or pressure when controlling the flow of a gas when tuning a system, or controlling the temperature in an aluminum smelter. You definitely need science skills to design something, but they are bloody useful for troubleshooting as well. Maths, physics and chemistry skills are useful and universal, however you pick them up.

Not a single post so far has been condescending towards you or others, so don't be so insecure. Giving good advice should not be considered condescending, or else boards like this would not exist.

Also, none of the other posters mentioned spelling or grammar so I have no idea why you brought that up. For the record, I don't look down on people with poor spelling or borderline punctuation provided they can get their message across clearly enough and have something relevant to say. Excellent writing skills can't hide weak reasoning or analytical skills, but they can enhance how well other understand you.

Terry just lambasted someone who had a relevant post, but because they did't use commas, or know the difference between their and there were somehow inferior.

 

[Doug-P]

Somehow I don't think this is the direction Peter Nachtwey had in mind for this thread.
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What tools will you be using 20 years from now? Will the questions posted on the PLC forum change? Will they still be about traffic lights and one button toggles? Will they still be about calculating speed using the latest high speed counter card? Are these the forever questions? I would hope the level of question would be a little higher.








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If we can't rise above petty bickering, yes.

 

[JohnW]

I think the point is that basic priciples, at whatever level, are needed more that specific equipmemt knowledge. If you understand basic principles then you can learn the specifics as and when required (and forget them again). When I started my apprenticeship I was using a hammer and chisel and learning physics, math and engineering at the same time. I learnt calculus but it took another couple of years before I was using it to calculate slip speeds. I learnt physics but it was a good few years later before I was applying that to a nuclear power plant. Learning the basics makes the complex easier to understand.

(I have used a hammer and chisel a lot since too)

 

[marius]

well... Peter ... Automation Industry is really 'special probative sample'... i'm solving same problems every day in many different ways using various tools

 

[jtn]

I agree that the sciences make a person a much more effective designer and troubleshooter. To really get deep knowledge of these skills I believe one must study them at a college, but I have known a couple of engineers that got their PE's through self study without going to school. I use the knowledge I learned in school in broad terms mostly - I haven't solved a calculus problem in a very long time but the relationships between curves (acceleration, velocity, etc.) that I learned are used almost every day in solving problems.

I believe this knowledge can be gotten from places other than school also though. If you worked on cars/motorcylcles/whatever while in high school you were learning a lot about physics and mechanics, just not the details. If you apply what you learned while doing this you are still applying science skills. The trick is to take an engineering problem and break it down to its basic elements of science, and then apply your knowledge of science to the problem whether your knowledge is textbook or self taught hands on.

I also believe that people are born with an aptitude for certain things, and if you don't have that aptitude for whatever it is you can practice, study, and work hard but you will never be as good as the person that practices, studies, works hard and has teh natural ability. I have practiced the guitar for 25 years and will never be as good some people that are only 15 years old because they are naturals. I have also worked with many PE's that are cut and paste engineers - whenever they come against something new they are flabbergasted. I have worked with many techinicains that come against a new problem and solve it with logic quickly and easily.

You can gain the knowledge of the science many ways besides school, but once you have the knowledge you have to "get" how it all fits together in order for it to be of any use. I do think that in order to communicate ideas clearly and effectively through correspondence you must have enough formal training (school or self study) to know the proper terms used in the field of engineering in order to put concise and clear ideas on paper to send to other people.

 

[rsdoran]

Petty bickering? hmmm.

Look at the replies made to the original posts.

Tell me where there is a job that is JUST PLC programming! Show me where it is stipulated that only ENGINEERS are required to program or work with PLC's.

Programming plc's or knowing how the program works is not a job, it is part of the duties assigned to different types of jobs.

The facts are that for every programmer there are 10 (or more) technicians (maintenance etc) expected to understand what they have done.

IT is great to have an education BUT it is CONDESCENDING to think that all had the opportunity to recieve the same, or better, education that you obtained.

It is not what Peter stated that I disagree with.

It is the fact that working with PLC's in general does not require being an engineer therefore many people that work with them will not have the opportunity to learn all the physics, math, etc that an engineer may.

Thank you jtn.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

I think some are missing the point. I can't speak for Peter, but my intent isn't to denigrate lack of formal education or even lack of specific knowledge in science. My point, and I believe Peter's as well, is that there is a tendency to get caught up in the mechanics of writing a program without using skills of observation and analysis to understand the underlying operating principles of what is being controlled.

For myself, education only expanded the troubleshooting skills that I learned as a kid back on the farm.

 

[jtn]

I think some are missing the point. I can't speak for Peter, but my intent isn't to denigrate lack of formal education or even lack of specific knowledge in science. My point, and I believe Peter's as well, is that there is a tendency to get caught up in the mechanics of writing a program without using skills of observation and analysis to understand the underlying operating principles of what is being controlled.

For myself, education only expanded the troubleshooting skills that I learned as a kid back on the farm.

That's what I was trying to say in a round about long winded way. Eloquent writing isn't in my skill set - I usually go through several versions of correspondence before sending it out, on here I shoot from the hip and click on send.

 

[khalil]

I have practiced the guitar for 25 years and will never be as good some people that are only 15 years old because they are naturals.

I play guitar since 10 years and still can't move From D minor to E properly :S...



Ron I agree with you...my father passed away when I was 9 and had to work and go to school at the same time, as you can see, I had to work 10 hours a day, so I couldnt really focus alot on what the teacher had to say..I am not very good when it comes to math, physics,etc but as I have worked in alot of factories since I was 9 years old..I obtained alot of knowledge.. that i cam solve any problem I encounter..but still you are better off with math and science..etc

we have four eng. where I work and non of them is reliable...they do have degrees, but my boss cant rely on them..cause they dont have "It"...education alone will not do you any good...you will only know theories and stuff...but in the real world..its only the experience that makes a differance!!! nontheless, science is good, but only for those lucky enough to have parents sending them to school!( I am not one)


regards.Khalil

 

[cntrlfrk]

I think you are all saying the same thing. If you do not have the formal education, you need to gain the knowledge on your own, but nevertheless, the knowledge is needed. If you have the formal education, you need to be able to apply it properly, plus gain knowledge in other areas.

I think we can all agree that a formal education alone is not all you need to survive in this business. I have worked with many different engineers and technicians, each with their own strong areas. Some are better with software, some better with programming, some better with field instruments, some better with high voltage, some better with communications, some better with motion control etc... However, I haven't met anyone in this industry who knows it all (although some have claimed to)

I've seen far too many engineers who could do some or all mentioned above, and were good 'programmers', but didn't understand basic fluid dynamics or know the difference between a positive-displacement pump and a centrifugal pump and what safeties and programming consideration to take for each.

Also, this seems to be the thread for orphaned children, and I have to confess that my father too died the day before my tenth birthday. I've always told people that it was probably the worst and best thing that ever happened to me.


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"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence... Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."...Calvin Coolidge