Forever knowledge. Learning may take forever.

[Rube]

...there is a tendency to get caught up in the mechanics of writing a program without using skills of observation and analysis to understand the underlying operating principles of what is being controlled.

Tom, my respect to you but do you really believe that?!? If so, you must be working with some real doozies. For the most part, every program I have worked with (but not authored) has been well thought out. Do they need tinkering to fit my particulars? Maybe. Then it becomes my job to improve the program.

I have been doing maintenance work for twenty five years, programming for eight, and panel building for six. I was reared on farms and dairies. I hunt a lot. I use my senses religiously! Why? Because I have only been programming for eight years--not twenty. And because it makes good sense.

I agree with Peter that there are people out there who fit his description. But I've been around this forum long enough, and in too many other situations to believe that his description is the majority. Only certain types of people become good at programming and it's been my experience that those people try to become REAL good at it--formally educated or not.

By the way, being from Texas there is a certain "built-in" expectation about my grammar. I have not the interest nor the time to invest in changing that expectation. I find Tom's occasional delve into hick talk amusing and not insulting. I have been told that I write well but when I speak I slaughter the english language. Oh well.

 

[Tom Jenkins]

Tom, my respect to you but do you really believe that?!? If so, you must be working with some real doozies.

Well, pardner, the answer is YEP to both questions.

They is a lot of folks out there, electricians, technicians, managers, and enjineers whut want a canned answer to most evry question. When I challenges them on why they want to do sich and sich I often gets "Cuz thet's our standard". This is a teeriffic way to avoid havin' t' think.

I sees lot's of fellers in all of them classifications whut want it all spelled out fer them. They don't want to think about the process and draw logical conclusions, they jist want a canned answer. Even wurse, thet canned answer better agree with their pre-concieved notions or else they won't even consider it. Heaven ferbid they should haff t' think about whut makes whut happen, and why they jist might be an exception to their rules!

 

[rsdoran]

I agree with Tom in general. It is not what you know can be done but what the customer wants to be done...the LAWS of SCIENCE do not always apply.

The sad part of this is that in many cases Engineers are involved.

 

[brucechase]

So how many post does it take to start bashing engineers? It happens a lot here and I would say that the stereotyping is not warranted. I really don't understand why so many people have to go down this road. I've never said that any NON-engineers were the cause of all the problems and I don't know any engineers who do. I would say that anyone with an attitude would probably get the same thing back. And I'm sure there are a few on both the degreed end with an attitude as on the technician end, but that does not justify the many posts I see that degrade anyone with a degree. If ALL the engineers that post here stated that the cause of all the problems are people who troubleshoot PLCs but did not go get a degree, then there would be hundreds of post flaming that person. I'm sure I'll get a lot of static for this but this is becoming the norm here.

 

[rsdoran]

Besides my last post that states engineers may be involved please enlighten us where engineers were bashed.

I think I was fairly straightforward on why I thought the original post was condescending to those that are NOT engineers nor have the opportunity to obtain the equivalent education.

I will not get into it too far BUT having an Engineering Degree does not always make someone an Engineer, you should know that.

 

[jtn]

... However, I haven't met anyone in this industry who knows it all (although some have claimed to)

Some of the best advice I have gotten is from a teacher way back who said, "The most dangerous thing on a project is a person that doesn't know something and doesn't realize that they don't know". Very true.

 

[dkh333]

I know this forum is about PLCs but I really do see them as just a tool..

Agreed.

Too many of you are obsessed with the knowledge of how to use a tool.

This is a website about PLC's, which you have correctly identified as tools! Imagine that! I am sure a visit to a Physics website reveals the people there equally obsessed about Physics. I think the first post was a little off base because it was not applied in the correct context. (And no I am not saying math and physics are not revelant to PLC's, it depends on your role in your specific career)

Y'all realize that you are using years of experience along with your educaction to be condescending arse's.?

You hit the nail on the head. I visit this site regularily but don't post often because of the general snobbery and ridicule
that far too often accompanies an honest request for help.

 

[Pierre]

I visit this site regularily but don't post often because of the general snobbery and ridicule that far too often accompanies an honest request for help.

I'm naked

 

[dale1627]

This is a website about PLC's, which you have correctly identified as tools! Imagine that! I am sure a visit to a Physics website reveals the people there equally obsessed about Physics. I think the first post was a little off base because it was not applied in the correct context. (And no I am not saying math and physics are not revelant to PLC's, it depends on your role in your specific career)

Very good point.

Dale

 

[tom_stalcup]

Too many of you are obsessed with the knowledge of how to use a tool. I know this almost sounds religious, but I do know that that there is knowledge that is created by Microsoft, Rockwell, Siemens, Koyo, Omron, Schneider and Mitsubishi this knowledge is temporary and will fade away. This is unsettling because one can learn this knowledge even if it is transitory. There is knowledge of math, logic and physics that will we always be true but this is harder to learn..

Hmmm... I think some people might be reading more into this than necessary...(But that's just my opinion)

I didn't read it as a putdown to anyone who doesn't know advanced math, logic, or physics myself. I was reading it from the viewpoint of how obsessive people are about things that only work the way they do because the MANUFACTURER wants them to work that way.
I mean, GIT stirred up a thread earlier about basic flip-flop circuits, and yes... There have been numerous discussions about how to do them in various different ways. It really doesn't matter(to me) which one of them I'll use if I ever need to program them. I just need to know that it is POSSIBLE, and that I know where to find out how to do one, and then I can do the legwork from there.
Does it really matter exactly how you have to implement it in a specific system? Not really.... Once you have the basic knowledge(logic) of how one works, you can just pick out the specific means you need to implement one in WHATEVER system you are using.

I do not care how much you know, how much experience you have, or if you are smarter than me...I am not going away.

I certaintly hope not!


For myself, I tend to go the other direction.... I don't actually care about the specifics of how I need to do something. Whether I'm working with GE, AB, C++, or Fortran, it's not about how to implement a definitive solution... It's not possible. When the next firmware update/revision/library/operating system comes out, you'll have to do things different anyway. As long as I take the time to learn what capabiltites of whatever system I'm using are, I tend to ignore the specifics until it becomes time to do something with them.

 

[Terry Woods]

Hmmm... this will be interesting... to some anyway.

Allscott said...
"Terry just lambasted someone who had a relevant post, but because they did't use commas, or know the difference between their and there were somehow inferior."

If you can't easily see that it was much more than that, then you are professing your own... lack of literacy, or at least, your own acceptance of illiteracy as being "OK".

Literacy and neatness have always counted... haven't they? I wonder... why? Why was it, back in school, that this pressure was being brought to bear at all?

I know why. And I also know why gradeschool teachers would constantly ask a student, in response to the students verbal answer to some question posed by the teacher, "Are you ASKING ME or are you TELLING ME?

An answer to a question is supposed to be a "declarative sentence", not a "question". That is, unless, of course, you are playing JEOPARDY! - but even then, the answer is only supposed to be "in the form of a question" (who, what, where, when, why), not necessarily with the intonation of a question.

When an answerer provides an answer with the intonation of a question, that is showing one of two things... either the answerer is not convinced of, or committed to, the answer, or the answerer is not convinced that you have any idea of what he is speaking about!

That means, either he thinks that he might be an idiot himself, or he thinks that you might be an idiot! And of course, as a listener, one that might infact know exactly what he's talking about, you can't tell if he thinks that he might be the idiot, or that he thinks that you might be the idiot. What do you think about that?

If, however, you know that you don't know what he's talking about, then it could very well be that both of you are idiots!

That reminds me of the razzle-dazzle-fast-speak (a lot of acronyms and stuff like that) that a lot of supposedly "knowing" sales people use on unsuspecting, trusting, customers.

Gee... I guess I'm just "old-school"... back when an education was really worthwhile and something to "strive" for.

Enough of that.

Regarding what Peter was talking about at the beginning...

It is not your position (education) that matters as much as the fact that you are in fact moving on the path (to a higher position, higher education). The value in any GREAT JOURNEY is NOT the destination! It is the Journey itself! It is the Journey that teaches!

"To journey" means to move toward a destination or a goal.

If you are not moving toward that destination or goal, you are not on the journey! You are sedentary. You are not learning!

And, as in any GREAT JOURNEY, the journey is not worth much unless there is stress, strife, and tribulation, on that journey!

Simply put... "No Pain, No Gain".

It is the continuous striving on the Journey that makes us better!

Arguing to justify ignorance is the very essence of ignorance itself!

It's not a matter of tolerance for ignorance. It's a matter of doing what one can to eradicate ignorance.

And so, some of us "push". We "push" you to get YOU on that damned journey!

By "pushing" YOU, at the very least, we are helping YOU to be all that you can be! (That phrase existed LONG before the ARMY ad.). But then, there is a long term, over-all effect... by "pushing" others to be all that they can be, we ALL benefit in the long-run! In my old-age, I hope to God that capable people will be doing what needs to be done!

Through history, I've read and seen cases where people are "left in ignorance". This is accomplished by simply removing the "push"; the "push" to get out of ignorance. However, I don't recall ever seeing, in my lifetime, where people were actually "pushed into ignorance".

So, if we "push", we are actually trying to help YOU, as well as ourselves!

Peter is talking about getting out of a specific-PLC-speak and move onto computer-speak. I totally agree with that with one exception... there is no reason that the computer can NOT handle normal himan concepts!

Other than that, Peter is saying, if you can think it, it can be so! You don't have to be bound to those damned canned-routines that the vendor might happen to provide!

This is a "Thinking Man's Game". In order to be an effective thinker, you have to be reasonably educated. And the better educated you are, the better your thinking!

All of that stuff applies to most endevours in life... except for those ba$tard$ that are involved in "creative financing"... we really have to find a way to choke them ba$tard$ off. They're screwing us all! For their own benefit!

By the way... the Journey NEVER ends!

Have you seen the movie, "The Never Ending Story"? It's a very simple story, but it is very poignant to the subject at hand.

 

[DickDV]

In my mind's eye I can see Mr. Nachtwey rocking back in his chair and laughing his sides off. He has to be the best in this forum for laying out the "bait" and watching the feeding frenzy!

Anybody notice that he hasn't participated except at the very beginning?

 

[elevmike]

Allscott,

I just read that post you were talking about. Personally I did not view it as a lambaste, but more as a request/suggestion. Everybody knows I'm a really poor speller, but as Ron once pointed out, bad spelling and punctuation can’t be picked up and interpreted correctly by the language interpreter that many members obviously use. So in that light Terry and Ron do have a point. So now I usually go through the trouble of running my post through a spell check before posting it.

 

[elevmike]

Dick,

I did notice that...

 

[Terry Woods]

So, whether Peter comes back or not, is his point valid?

I think it is.