RANT: Why Can't People just Hire the Right Person For the Job????

[iadapt]

Like you said - it's an old post - but also a common post.
there is always a wrong person to employ.
the Boss needs to know more and often doesnt.
as a result any person with the 'GIFT of THE GAB' can work in to jobs and use sites like this one to get them past the first few months.
I can prove my ability easily, but most employers don't know what questions to ask

You are so right, my company went to a local world renown college to find a programmer. Electronics and Computer Tech degree. he couldn't even connect the laptop to the processor. And he majored in automation, yet my employer and our most experienced tech (20 yrs experience in programming) didn't even have the sense to test him before bringing him on board. There comment was "well we cant fire, so were stuck with him"

At least TEST a guy and check his bloody references! Luckily he left for a better job (after he learned how to wire a machine and connect the processor top the laptop) I must admit I do like the guy and we stay in touch (he's trying to recruit me for the other company...he..he..)

So I guess were back to qualifying a guy to work in this industry as a Programmer, where do you learn the trade and and how do you get your first job. All this without being a burden to the industry?

To me it seems simple, license/certification, I do believe it will be an inevitable conclusion some day. Especially the way the gov is, just think about it, in my state of Indiana you need a license to cut hair so why not have a bonded electrician/programmer as well.

Well now let the comments fly --- I can take it... just no bricks, ball bats or ice picks as I am sensitive....

 

[DwSoFt]

Why not test potential employees with a device like this
http://www.scientific-management.com/plctest.html

 

[Steve Bailey]

The biggest problem I see about licensing is the question of who gets to make up the licensing exam and how does it stay current with developments in the industry.

Do a search of this site using "unitary, modular, and rack mounted" as keywords. For several years British students taking the PLC section of their HNC exam would post here asking for definitions of those terms. Despite assurances that nobody in the real world ever used those terms, the question persisted. For all I know it may still be part of the exam.

As I understand it, the HNC certificate is part of the British certification system. I don't know if their certification is akin to licensing here in the USA, but I worry about any official certification process that includes worthless trivia like that. The equivalent question in today's autoamtion environment might be along the lines of: "What is the difference between a PLC and a PAC"?

 

[iadapt]

I personally hate tests, I freeze up and dont do well. However if the industry doesn't do something like at least set a standard. Then companies are going to HIRE THE WRONG PEOPLE!

At least maybe setup a journeymen program. I do agree with you about the worthless trivia most common on tests. And based on my experience, much to my chagrin, colleges, the place of higher learning isn't the place to turn to for guidance on this matter.

It seems like there isn't an easy answer, its the chicken and the egg or the experience vs getting a job dilemma. How does one get into this industry (I started as an electrician, then control panel builder to entry level programmer) without clear guidelines and set progressions that most certainly lead to a job as a programmer?

Most programmers have the sense or aura about them that says "I got mine" and everyone else is on their own to get theirs. I try not to be that way and I am willing to share anything I now with anyone. But maybe its because most programmers have a unique route that led them to their current job and it would be unlikely anyone else could easily repeat the same steps and succeed.

In addition it seems no one wants to formalize the industry, therefore the likelihood of continuing to HIRE THE WRONG PEOPLE!

Just my pennies thought!

Now on to my programming practice!

 

[DwSoFt]

as i am still trying to get into programming it seems that the programmers i deal with as an E/I foreman, are half the type that say you are on your own. and the other half are the type that teach me lots of things on the job we work on together. i wish it was as simple as taking a course and then a job. because then i would have went that route already lol.

 

[krakenfan69]

I was an electrician for 25 years. I hold a Journeyman's license from my home State of Kansas. For years we saw unlicensed "electricians" and even shops with no Master's license get and do work in the industry. I see it where I live now too. I agree requiring a license is a step in the right direction but it won't stop people from hiring someone who isn't to save a few bucks and there will always be those who are unqualified (licensed or not) who will low ball those who are.

Kraken Fan #69

 

[JERA]

Think back to when you started and how much you could at that time.
You learn something new every time there's new equipment and that knowledge you can then share with others or keep for yourself.

So it's a choice whether you want to share your knowledge with others and giving them new knowledge. There are many "simple" questions in this forum but the same questions we asked probably also when we started.

A new person in a company does not know how to do things in the company or what but doing different things. Help him to make things right so he gets knowledge, for it may be that he has a knowledge you can use and that way you both get more knowledge.

Remember
"Life be understood backwards but must be lived forwards."

 

[Tom Jenkins]

I am a licensed engineer. I know a great many licensed engineers that aren't worth diddly squat. I know a great many un-licensed engineers that are top notch.

Licensing may weed out the really, really, weak players, but human nature is the fundamental problem. That isn't going to change. Kraken had it right.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

I know a great many licensed engineers that aren't worth diddly squat. I know a great many un-licensed engineers that are top notch.

I second Tom's opinion ...

simple analogy:

there are a great many licensed drivers out there on the highways these days – and they've all passed the test ...

but ...

(well, you should be able to see where I'm going with that particular line of reasoning) ...

 

[iant]

we have licenses for electricians and gas plumbers.
and some other fields
but as far as engineers - they have a Diploma for there 4~6 years of iniversity, this is common and plagerism is rife.

Electricians, like myself, have spent many years working with machinery.
Other electricians only see the wiring of buildings, houses etc.
I am a licensed 'A' Grade electrician.
I have seen many an 'expert engineer' design S..T and insist it was the right way to go. even after me, insisting that it would not work.
I am glad I work for myself now - it means more money for me

 

[bce123]

Think back to when you started and how much you could at that time.
You learn something new every time there's new equipment and that knowledge you can then share with others or keep for yourself.

So it's a choice whether you want to share your knowledge with others and giving them new knowledge. There are many "simple" questions in this forum but the same questions we asked probably also when we started.

A new person in a company does not know how to do things in the company or what but doing different things. Help him to make things right so he gets knowledge, for it may be that he has a knowledge you can use and that way you both get more knowledge.

Remember
"Life be understood backwards but must be lived forwards."

you spend most of your life gaining knowledge and at some sad point in life you start losing it or simply life just ends. If you did not pass some of it on what what was the point being here!

 

[DwSoFt]

you spend most of your life gaining knowledge and at some sad point in life you start losing it or simply life just ends. If you did not pass some of it on what what was the point being here!

this sums it all up exactly

 

[dwoodlock]

you spend most of your life gaining knowledge and at some sad point in life you start losing it or simply life just ends. If you did not pass some of it on what what was the point being here!

Truth!

after reading the first post of this thread I must say, I was highly disgusted frankly. Glad that the feelings expressed there are not universal.

 

[BAJ]

Sorry, I know it's an old thread but I felt I should add my $0.02 ($20 adjusted for pending inflation).

<rant>
The way I see it the biggest reason for the incoherent questions asked here is a complete lack of mentoring. When I started in this business in the early 90s I had several great mentors, mid- and senior engineers who took me under their wings and taught me how to do a project right. Yes I was a gopher for a while, making copies and calling for quotes on hardware someone else selected, but I learned from some of the best and didn't have to make a lot of the mistakes others do in order to learn. Today's n00bs are pulled out of school and dropped in the ocean, sink or swim. And even those that swim drink a lot of water along the way.

Like it or not, these forums are the substitute mentors.

Our future's biggest enemy is Corporate America's moto of "do more with less", which equates to "do it half-*ssed, it only has to hold up until I get promoted." Seriously, as an integrator I haven't seen a project in the last 6+ years that any of my customers have cared enough to actually finish (finish right anyway). And I've seen it come back and bite them in the *ss time and again. I know everyone is trying to cut costs to stay competitive and keep their businesses afloat, but contrary to management's belief it's not without consequences.

</rant>

 

[Tom Jenkins]

I agree, BAJ. The MBA's running so many corporations don't seem to understand that at some point "lean and mean" becomes "starving and lethargic". Having never worked in a department like engineering or sales, they simply don't understand where the red beans and black beans they count come from!