RANT: Why Can't People just Hire the Right Person For the Job????

SNK said:
My point was gentlemen that we need to globally increase our awareness of completing a task efficiently. If we continue to delay, delay and delay again due to incompetence in the workplace, our jobs in manufacturing are going to disappear.
From my perspective, I am seeing more incompetence every day, and those are the decision-makers.

Don't take things so personally guys.

Steven, why don't you put your money where your mouth is too?
Guaranteed that your circuit boards are made in China. To think that you know anything about where I purchase any of my goods, you should be ashamed of your allegations.

The last time I checked, I am driving American.

Good for you, I commend you on your personal decisions.

What about your business decisions? If you had a choice between a product manufactured in either Canada or the US, and one from China (or overseas)...and the Chinese product was 15% less expensive, which would your company choose?

My point was that the manufacturing jobs are affected by the decisions made, by engineers, contractors, purchasing agents...etc.

Is the best product always the least expensive product?

Do people factor in the hidden costs associated with manufacturing, such as support, warranty, economies of scale?

My money is where my mouth is. Our web site states it.

We have two board houses in the Toronto area that fabricate our raw circuit boards.

We don't have a great deal of control over the components (ICs, caps, resistors, etc...) in that the vast majority are not manufactured in this country but in fabs outside of North America.

Every controller we sell is manufactured and tested here. We have no other manufacturing facility.


Regarding the use of outside contractors, we have used them in the past and will likely continue to use them when the circumstances arise.

When dealing with an outside contractor, you are not their only client, so, you have very little control over their time.As an outside contactor you dedicate as much time as you were told on a certain project. If and it is usually the case, the mentality of the place is "we'll get it when we get it" and "tomorrow is another day" as an outside contactor you haver to take care of other clients as well which by the way were scheduled way ahead of time. so... can't drop everybody else just because your "one" client dropped the ball on you. I have comittments and expect a steady stream of work from other clients as well, can't just tell them to wait just because my "one" client did not feel like completing their part on time. It is a 2-way street, either you like it or not.
And (not sure if that was the case but...) one thing that will speed up the process will be to PAY the contactor on time!!

This is my point exactly, regardless of the circumstances, whether the issue is from the perspective of the contractor or the contractee, you as the contractee don't have control over the contractor. The contractor has to be responsible for himself, because every decision he makes affects him directly.


Hiring someone, you have more control over their time, but need to train them. You don't know what will happen after the training is complete. Major issue here: Most of my clients have no one on board to train new employees, do the job themselves or anyone been there long enough to even know what they are about to build. Last place I did a project for, they now push their mech angineers to learn "Ladder Logic". That's the mentality of manufacturing places in the U.S or so I've seen in the last 4-5 years. Cut your work force down to a minimum, no training, tight deadlines and hope for the best. If things turn for the worse, blame the programmer, machine builder, the cleaning crew but not the people who went down that route!
You anticipate from your interview process that based on the information you have obtained, that the candidate has the required skills for the job. That isn't always the case in that some people interview better than they perform. Another issue: The interviewers happen to be upper managment people, accounting, project managers, sales people, owners for smaller outfits. They do NOT have a clue in other words!!

We have acted as a contractor for the very reasons stated above, our customer either doesn't have the time, the manpower, or the knowledge to develop the portion of their application that relates to our products.

There is so much global competition that there is little room for under utilized overhead.

I have noticed this environment for about the last 10 years. Companies will either:

1. Make do with what they have

2. Cross train employees, so that they know other aspects of the business

3. Hire an independent contractor

Before they even consider hiring another employee.

You now have on top of everything else a very uncertain economy, whereby for some, business couldn't be better, while for others, it is very sketchy. The last thing employers want to do is hire someone with no certainty that the work will be there for them next month.

I have talked with engineers that do production if they don't have any current projects open. I have seen engineers do purchasing and sales. On the flip side, I have dealt with mechanical engineers who were made responsible for doing the electrical engineering.

Needless to say, due to the competition as well as other factors, companies are only going to hire if they absolutely have to hire.

Don't get me wrong, there are people that are quite capable of mutitasking, while there are others that have no business doing more than what they were hired to do. It all rests on the individual.

My engineer came out of ITT, and was well versed in computers but not much else when we hired him. The reason we hired him was because of his computer background. He had minimal PLC knowledge, for which we trained him for what he needed to know. After his nearly 10 years here, he will now be getting in to circuit design for which he has tinkered with in his spare time. Based on his growth and desire to learn, I believe him to be fully capable for undertaking the task.

If the person has a desire to learn, and is fully capable, why not encourage your employee to grow and expand their knowledge, skills and capabilities. Yes there will likely be a learning curve. Yes there may be mistakes along the way. But, this is how we all truly learn.
 
The answer is simple

I haven't read all the posts on this subject, because I am paid to work. I will say though that as someone who is still on the newer end of things(only been in this field 8 years), I have learned some things.

First, I am a victim of the degreed philosophy. I am and have been taking classes for 5 years pursuing an ABET accredited EE degree. I will say this though. Degrees mean that the person you are hiring is intelligent enough to problem solve, even if they haven't done something before. At our plant, we have people who are in way over their heads. They are way under-educated for what they are doing. This is evidenced by their struggles. I definitely agree that experience is a great teacher, but correct theory also speeds up the learning curve and helps avoid learning by crashing and burning.

The largest reason for the mentality as it is asking people to expand beyond their expertise is simple. Our standard of living is higher than that of most other countries. Your options to keep your job are to accept lesser pay to compete with the global competition, or be more flexible as an employee. Not 1 person I know is going to take the former, hence all of the questions on here.

For the record, I have in the past, and still do, find great value in this community.
 
robertmee said:
I don't think anyone is disputing that a PLC programmer is instant-born. Nor do I recall anyone advocating that you have to get your degree. And this board welcomes newbies and their quest for knowledge. However, what the collective is tired of seeing is the poster that says I have XYZ project that I need to do, can you:

A) tell me how to connect to a PLC

B) what software do I need and where can I get it for free

C) what is a contact

D) Can you send me the code to make a widget packer work

E) My homework is due tomorrow and I haven't paid attention in class. How do I

When someone posts who is alternately well prepared, with an outline of what they need to do and has done the basic research on their own, then this board is all over helping that individual. I think everyone gets a sense of accomplishment helping those attain the level that they are at.


That for me pretty much hits it on the head.

Now why is this happening so much?

I guess it comes down to the 'instant gratification' thing going on today. A few years ago there wasnt this option. No internet, no web help, it was a case of 'RTFM' and figure it out yourself or sit with an expert and learn from them.

This IT explosion has helped alot, dont get me wrong but its also made every man and his dog think with help from a forum like this and a little googling they can be master of the universe.

In my world DCS systems have had to embrace Gates and M$ and it hasnt been pretty. IT people think because it has windows on it its 'just a pc' causing all sorts of headaches.
 
Say you have this one guy.
Lets say 24 yrs of age, 3yrs experience in maintenance, 3 yrs in PLC's. Say main experience is with Simatic HMI and S7. Lets say he's inhouse guy.

What would YOU let him do?
 
IS that you Jeebs?

I think everyone is an individual, with their own capabilities. I see it all the time where certain guys get the 'easier' stuff and others get the 'difficult' stuff, all get paid the same $$$.

If I was hiring I would ask general questions specific to the task, like how would you configure the PLC, ask you to scribble down basic ladder /stl code, ask you about OB/FC/FB etc.

If you are an in-house guy then it would depend on what you and yor boss think your capabilities are, what the time scale is, and what is the potential to go to jail if somthing turns nasty

Maybe you should start a new thread , this is going off topic .

Cheers
 
Jeebs said:
Say you have this one guy.
Lets say 24 yrs of age, 3yrs experience in maintenance, 3 yrs in PLC's. Say main experience is with Simatic HMI and S7. Lets say he's inhouse guy.

What would YOU let him do?
Not enough infomation.
 
Jeebs said:
Say you have this one guy.
Lets say 24 yrs of age, 3yrs experience in maintenance, 3 yrs in PLC's. Say main experience is with Simatic HMI and S7. Lets say he's inhouse guy.

What would YOU let him do?


Hmmmm... make coffee, sweep the workshop, put out the trash.....






( sorry Jeebs - couldn't resist it :) )
 
krk said:
Hmmmm... make coffee, sweep the workshop, put out the trash.....



( sorry Jeebs - couldn't resist it :) )

If my boss wants me to make coffee, buy donuts, sweep up, wash his car, &etc., that's fine with me. I get paid either way.
 
MASEngr said:
If my boss wants me to make coffee, buy donuts, sweep up, wash his car, &etc., that's fine with me. I get paid either way.

Boss to young engineer: Go sweep up the shop.
Young engineer: But I'm an engineer.
Boss: Good, use your education to find a more efficient way to use the broom. I expect a report in a couple of weeks.
 
Hmm.

I'm 24 years old. I have a BS in Electrical Engineering. I took courses on PLCs (On SLC500s and RSLogix 500, and Panelbuilder32 and PViews) during college.

I'm currently in my 3rd year in the field working at a place. I'm an in house guy, I do work for the company I work for. I've done a lot of work with AB PLCs (Both 500 and 5000), and am pretty knowledgable when it comes to simple sequence machines. I don't know much about advanced coms and motion control though.

Since they have me, they don't want to higher someone else to do the job that they believe I can do (And, in time, am usually able to). I'm forced into working on new things (Like Siemens S7, and the 300 series processors) and some Mitsubishi things. I'm forced to learn by doing, I don't choose to. They cannot spare the time to send me to proper classes constantly to learn the things, and can usually only do it for 1 day courses.

Learning by doing is pretty much the only way I can learn a lot of the things I'm doing. And a lot of the times rather than send me away to classes, they actually get one of the sales reps to send a tech to me and show me the basics.

I know everything I said has been said before, but it lets you know there are more of me out there. A friend of mine I graduated with took the other route, he works for a system integrater, he goes out and does what I do for my company, for a lot of different people. Then when he is back in the office, he actually gets taught by the people he works with that have experience.

In his down time, he learns. In my down time, I repair things that have broken :(
 
Tharon said:
A friend of mine I graduated with took the other route, he works for a system integrater, he goes out and does what I do for my company, for a lot of different people. Then when he is back in the office, he actually gets taught by the people he works with that have experience.

In his down time, he learns. In my down time, I repair things that have broken :(
This is why I recommend that people work for system integrators or companies like mine.

In addition to the training, think of all that application experience your friend gets while you get to look at the same old machinery every day.

BTW, the reason the right people don't get hired is that the wrong people are doing the hiring.
 
Peter Nachtwey said:
BTW, the reason the right people don't get hired is that the wrong people are doing the hiring.

WOW!! You got that right!!!! This sums up the whole thread.
 
Mickey said:
Boss to young engineer: Go sweep up the shop.
Young engineer: But I'm an engineer.
Boss: Good, use your education to find a more efficient way to use the broom. I expect a report in a couple of weeks.

Doesn't need an engineer to figure out an efficiant way. A lazy person will find a more efficient way..:D

Peter Nachtwey said:
BTW, the reason the right people don't get hired is that the wrong people are doing the hiring.

I had a reply in mind to my first post, quite long, very on topic, but it came down to what Peter just said.
I blame RMA for sucking up my time and never getting back to this post.

@krk: been there, done that......:D
 
robertmee said:
I don't think anyone is disputing that a PLC programmer is instant-born. Nor do I recall anyone advocating that you have to get your degree. And this board welcomes newbies and their quest for knowledge. However, what the collective is tired of seeing is the poster that says I have XYZ project that I need to do, can you:

A) tell me how to connect to a PLC

B) what software do I need and where can I get it for free

C) what is a contact

D) Can you send me the code to make a widget packer work

E) My homework is due tomorrow and I haven't paid attention in class. How do I

When someone posts who is alternately well prepared, with an outline of what they need to do and has done the basic research on their own, then this board is all over helping that individual. I think everyone gets a sense of accomplishment helping those attain the level that they are at.
Robert, you mean well prepared as this guy???
amit22 said:
how to develop ticket vending machine Clearly states what the machine will do! from any plc and gives you ALL the specs that you may need to answer the question.!! ???
anyone know logic This is a bit "iffy" I assume he wants Ladder Logic so Structured Text and such is out of the question. ???
 
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