RANT: Why Can't People just Hire the Right Person For the Job????

[Longhorn]

SNK, I take onboard what youre saying and agree to a certain extent, the only thing i will say is "we all have to start somewhere", i started off as a mechanical engineer and done a full apprentiship, i then carried on to do Electrical HNC and have recently completed HND in systems engineering. I am currently doing continuous improvement projects and plant automation as a job but want to do automation engineering as a full time job.
My point is that you are not born a software developer, you have to do the training and be good at self teaching to a degree. Although not everyone will turn out to be what you would class as "good programmers" but credit for the people that try.
Determination is the key, all the best m8ey:beer:

 

[SNK]

Points well taken Patrick.
I, too am an end user.
I am just frustrated as to the people sinking our ships.

If your system is down, and you can't figure it out....how long does it take for you to draw the line and say...
"lets get the OEM here"?

That is my point.
People need to start understanding that they can't fix everything. People need to understand that there are specialized processes and tasks that are more better solved by the people that developed the application.

 

[Mark Buskell]

Patrick,

I applaud you, you are the type that does his best to find answers out, whether through books, hands-on, self-learning, forums, etc.
I imagine that you do searches here and other forums as I do to before asking a question.

It's not whether you are a end user or a integrator. All us except maybe Peter have to ask for help now and then.

I have to figure out how to link multiple processors using ethernet and mutiple dhrio modules so they can all be assessed from one desktop computer. I have already started reviewing the AB website on how to do this.

I think the point of this thread is if someone shows a little initiative and give some details, they will find help here.

It's the ones that for whatever reason do not show any initiative that gets some of the members here riled.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

I really do have better things to do than to give cluesless people a bad time.

This one is for you Peter, do your thing.

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=40445

I guess his boss should have hired someone that could at least get the programming lead to work.
Mickey, there should be plenty of people that have been helped with their USB to serial port that can answer this question.
I figure it is the responsibility for the last person that got helped with his USB to serial question to pay back by answering this question. Do you think this guy will help the next person that asks the same USB to serial question or will he just get his answer and leave.

It looks like he is till waiting for an answer.

I didn't mind the HNC questions. I just ignored them. I figured that the HNC graduates from the year before should pay back by answering the questions. They never did as far as I could tell. They were all takers. Gimme, Gimme, Gimme my answer NOW! Then they slip away never to be heard of again. They deserve the **** the got but I don't see why people would waste their time dishing it out.

It's not whether you are a end user or a integrator. All us except maybe Peter have to ask for help now and then.

I don't know everything.... yet. Perhaps if I live long enough. I ask my questions elsewhere. Here is a recent one.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=221328
I am going to see if there are any decent mechanical engineers.
You can see this is not an easy topic. I am finding that I am having to explain the concept of energy to them.

If you like math then this one would be more interesting
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.math.symbolic/browse_frm/thread/b422cd6569ed971e#
Look at the answers. They almost fill a page. I learned from Bob Walton how to use Maxima to solve there problems that Mathcad can't. I needed a better tool but just as important was the technique. I was limited in my thinking because I was using a limited tool.

I don't ask many question but the ones I ask make people think think.

 

[BryanG]

Why Can't People just Hire the Right Person For the Job????

You think this just applies to Industry, it is people wide, life wide and world wide. Wars aren't won, they are lost. The world financial problems are caused by incompetence or greed. A countries financial problems are caused by incompetence or greed. A companies financial problems are caused by incompetence or greed. We elect people to govern for us by how they look or because of sound bites propagated by the media, when we should be looking for education and life experience. We believe what we see on TV or in the newspapers or even worse on the Web. We accept what our parents and teachers tell us to be true and we 'know' that when we get up in a morning the world will still be there. We are totally illogical, more interested in who is humping who than science and knowledge. Happy to drive a four wheeled killing machine but terrified by terrorism.

But guess what, we are Human and that is the way it is, GET OVER IT. There is no perfect system of life or politics, there are no experts with all the answers, and don't get me started on Religion. So we muddle through doing the best we can and hopefully have the courage to ask for help. So if someone asks and I can offer any help, I will. My name isn't 'Earl' but maybe, just maybe.... Karma...

Bryan

 

[Patrick]

SNK, Mark Buskell Thank you for your response. As Longhorn stated "we all have to start somewhere". I have a tuff time with search engines. One of the I.S. guys here said that I tend to phrase the question backwards.

Peter, I agree with your assessment of those who receive help should in turn help. The first post I made to this board was to answer a question not to ask.

I’m a late comer to this board. Some of you have grown up with this board. I understand your frustrations with the repeated questions. But that is what this board was started for. To help anyone with a PLC problem.

Maybe I took the original post the wrong way. Like SNK “Maybe I didn’t get my morning coffee quick enough”.

Well SNK kick back and enjoy the rest of the day. After all it’s the weekend and the bosses are all out playing golf, while I babysit the place.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

in another lifetime - long ago ...

one of the basic questions in this thread seems to be:



why do customers choose to use “cheaper” instead of “better”? ...



I submit that (at least in some cases) maybe there’s a “middle man” upstairs that hasn’t been considered ...



first some background ...



about twenty years ago I was happily and profitably self-employed as a one-man shop doing restaurant equipment repairs ... fry vats, pizza ovens, steamers, etc. ... I had (no joke) an unlisted telephone number and did ZERO advertising other than word-of-mouth from one satisfied customer to another customer ... and I stayed BUSY at least 50-60 hours each week ... one day one of my regular customers (a store manager for Burger King) called me into his office with a “problem” ... basically he told me this:

Ron, my regional manager has been chewing my rear end about your hourly rate ... he wants to know why I’m paying you $40 an hour for repairs - when his stores in other cities are paying less than half that amount per hour ... I told him: “When Ron drives up he’s got all the parts in stock on his truck - he’s got all the tools - and he knows how to fix my equipment QUICK ... when I’ve tried using other guys, they have to order the parts - and they klutz around with slipshod tools - and it takes them at least three or four times as long to get the job done ... I’ve watched THEM work - and I’ve watched RON work ... Ron’s hourly rate is a bargain” ...



but ...



Ron, my regional manager won’t accept that argument - because he’s got a boss too ... so here’s the plan that he and I have come up with ... from now on, just write up your bills for $20 per hour - but charge me for TRIPLE the actual hours ... that way you’ll actually be making MORE money than before - and everyone upstairs will be happy ...

no, I am NOT making this up ... anyway ... I respectfully told the guy that I was not going to be a party to “fudging” the invoices - and setting myself up to look like a crook someday in the future ...



and so to my point ...



whenever a customer is looking for “automation services” maybe there’s somebody riding a desk upstairs who’s comparing “numbers” from Vendor A with “numbers” from Vendor B - or maybe even considering doing the work for “free” using in-house resources ...



so maybe that desk jockey’s job performance is “enhanced” when he can show his boss how HE saved the company X-amount of dollars by “shopping around” for a better deal on “automation services” ... so maybe he gets a nice bonus for getting the job done “cheaper” ...



just another thought for the discussion ...

 

[Patrick]

Understand managers position

Ron, I understand the upper managers position. When I worked for a printing press company I was sent out to a school to rebuild some presses that was donated to the school. After rebuilding the presses, I was asked to teach the teachers how to run the newer machines. I told them that a sales person could do that at one third of the price I would have to charge. They said that no money was set aside for teaching only for repair. To you and me this makes no sense but to some accountant this makes perfect sense. It is the world we live in.

 

[mrtweaver]

After reading thru all these postings I had to add my gripes in here as well. I agree with all the items that have been mentioned.

1. A pencil pushing geek sits there with no idea of what actually goes on other than seeing his/her numbers. They choose based on price not quality. Then say look what I saved the company. But no one higher or even lower comes back and says if we used company a to do this it would have taken this long and production would have already started on that machine while with company b it took twice as long.

2. Number one leads me to number 2. This one is about how since they hire these companies then they start to loose money and it is always the production employees fault. They are always the first one to get downsized. No matter what you say the boss is always right.

This leads to my bigest gripe that lets say boss person drives the company into the ground because of his poor choices and that of the the other pencil pushing geeks. Well boss person still walks away from the job with a nice bonus and all kinds of other perks while the average joe gets the bone. This also includes outside contracted persons as well.

I once worked for a company that went belly up. They had this really nice contact employee come in do some work. The employer went belly up and the contact person got boned. And I know the mgmt went away with a smile on their face. When are people going to wake up start making boss person more responsible. Then there might be some changes made.

 

[hokie]

I see an overall devaluation of engineering, particularly with respect to manufacturing. Companies are not willing to spend the money for engineers and engineering services. Large manufacturers keep skeleton engineering staffs that they lay off every few years. Why be an engineer when you can go into IT or finance, where you make much more money and have lower technical requirements?
A large percentage of my engineering friends from college have long sense left engineering and gone into finance/business/IT/etc. Not sure what I am still doing here...

As a result the technical pool seems to get smaller and it hard to find/hire good qualified people.

 

[eebads2391]

I would say if you are part of the upper elite that can program , produce code and logic , implement it in a designed system for a customers requirements and know how to get it all working ......
you will never be threatened by the manager that does it on the cheap
or doesn't use professional help to do a job

or the guy who attempts it himself or persuades others ( not suitably qualified ) to do the project

I mean, that you are highly skilled and are in a specialist job and as such should not feel threatened

It is similar to a surgeon, being the only person capable of carrying out a difficult operation , people should only use the right person for the right job

As previously posted , it comes to those that wait or deserve it

I hope the "stupid" questions that are asked , would be politely informed to come back after gaining at least a basic knowledge through books or research

The questions that are asking for info however are asking for your help

It may seem obvious or simple to you , but they deserve an answer ( if you know it )

The guy who comes on asking about a laptop may be irritating , but he is asking advice all the same

If questions are asked that clearly show up a persons lack of knowledge , then you are able to ignore that post or reply with an answer if you choose

I am from an electrical background and the ability to ask a basic question is what the essence of forums are all about

I try and come to a forum with the respect it deserves and hope to be able to reply to someone elses question if they ask a question about my particular field

 

[Ron Beaufort]

Greetings eebads2391 ...



I certainly don’t want to start an argument with you - but I respectfully disagree with your point of view ... I’m short on time right now - but if you’d like to debate this, I’ll be happy to write more later ...



but - in a nutshell ... once the customer’s limited budget money has been spent on any “substandard” product, it’s hard (if not impossible) to just start all over again - and do the job right ...



when you look at it from that point of view (which I think is entirely reasonable) then a contractor who insists on only providing “good” service can definitely be threatened by the ones who provide “bad” service ...



one of the points of my earlier post (#22) is that I had PLENTY of other customers to fall back on ... for many businesses that isn’t always the case ... there is only a certain limited amount of “automation” money floating around out there ... once that’s been spent (either wisely or unwisely) then someone is going to come up with the short end of the stick ... if there’s payroll, rent, and other expenses to meet, then it doesn’t take long for a “good” business to go under ...

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Why don't you just work for/with the right people?

Then you don't care about someone elses boss doesn't hire the right person for the job.

but - in a nutshell ... once the customer’s limited budget money has been spent on any “substandard” product, it’s hard (if not impossible) to just start all over again - and do the job right ...

Avoiding these problems is the trick. That is why you got to find good people to work with. If the mechanical guys do their job right the control guys have a much easier time. At least that is the way it works in motion control.

when you look at it from that point of view (which I think is entirely reasonable) then a contractor who insists on only providing “good” service can definitely be threatened by the ones who provide “bad” service ...

Only in the short term.

one of the points of my earlier post (#22) is that I had PLENTY of other customers to fall back on ... for many businesses that isn’t always the case ... there is only a certain limited amount of “automation” money floating around out there ... once that’s been spent (either wisely or unwisely) then someone is going to come up with the short end of the stick ... if there’s payroll, rent, and other expenses to meet, then it doesn’t take long for a “good” business to go under ...

Did any of those customers realize their mistake and come back to ask for your services?

I know that at a product level we see this all the time. People try to do motion control inside the PLC fail and then come back to our solution, sure we must often wait 6 months or a year but we often get the sale eventually. Your point is valid if that sales makes all the difference between survival and failure.

 

[Ron Beaufort]

Greetings Peter ...



it’s always a pleasure to discuss things with you ...

Only in the short term.

yes ... but my point is that for SMALL businesses, SHORT TERM is often enough to sink the ship ...

Did any of those customers realize their mistake and come back to ask for your services?

absolutely - usually when two out of three of their fry vats were out of commission - and the third was starting to act up ... after Bozo Repair Services had tried and failed a few times to get things fixed, I’d start getting calls from the same old customers - but with NO complaints about my prices this time around ...



a key point is that my former restaurant equipment repair business was small (“agile” is the current buzzword I think) - and I had very low overhead expenses ... if there had been a payroll to meet, etc. things could have been a much different matter ... and I think that’s one of the main points being made in this thread ... (someone please correct me if I’m wrong) ...



specifically, the basic idea is that some of the small “quality” automation shops are being “squeezed out” of the market by shoddy competitors who are low-balling the available work ...

... sure we must often wait 6 months or a year but we often get the sale eventually. Your point is valid if that sales makes all the difference between survival and failure.

I think we’re on the same page here ... and I think that companies like yours (which are large enough to roll with the punches) are indeed fortunate ... some smaller companies can’t wait around until enough customers come to their senses ... if “automation work” is the only way they have of supporting their families, then things get really scary once business slows down ...



anyway ... my current business runs into the same types of issues being discussed here in this thread ... the “Sympathy Button” that I added to my website home page sums up a lot of my own opinions about this subject ... I doubt that the same method outlined there would work for most “automation integrator” shops, etc. - but anyone is welcome to take a look at my personal approach to handling the problem ... and there is more information along the same lines in the “Question and Answer” section ...



I’ll close with this ...



years ago I heard a tech school student make this remark to an instructor - about a fellow student: “Sure Little Johnnie is cheating on the tests - but he’s really only hurting himself.”



the instructor (a friend of mine) went ballistic - and made the following points [expletives deleted]:

so Little Johnnie cheats - and makes a passing grade on the test ... how does THAT “cheat” Little Johnnie? ...



so Little Johnnie cheats on enough tests to get a diploma ... how does THAT “cheat” Little Johnnie? ...



so Little Johnnie’s diploma helps him land a job ... how does THAT “cheat” Little Johnnie? ...



so Little Johnnie’s new employer now has a useless employee - instead of a student who actually learned the material ... how does THAT “cheat” Little Johnnie? ...



[and so on] ...



the old idea that “cheating only cheats the cheater” is a line straight out of Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood - where EVERYBODY is a “winner” and NOBODY is a “loser” ... the real world is a far different place ...

anyway - that was the way my friend nailed it down ...

 

[RMA]

On second thoughts ...

Having worked for a variety of employers, none of whom were prepared to fork up for training courses, everything I've learnt, I've learnt on the job. On the whole, I think it's worked out pretty well, both for me (especially for me?) and for my employers, so, while I understood wheere SNK was coming from, I thought he was exagerating a bit.

Then I went on to open this Thread!