fluidpower1 said:
Peter said way back:
Quotte:
Twice the pressure yields 1.414 times the speed. That isn't insignificant.
Peter, How much does flow, to and from the cylinder change, when it goes 1.414 times faster?
Steady state that would be 1.414 time more flow. But flow doesn't make it go. flow only equalizes pressure.
If you say Flow Does Not Increase, I will have to go along with Force Makes it Go and take Flow Makes it Go out of my books.
I don't understand what you are trying to say.
"Now tell the other PLC person that servo hydraulic actuators extend faster than they retract given other things are equal. Bet him lunch."
I believe Peter's statement: "servo hydraulic actuators extend faster than they retract" is the key to his saying what he does about the speed of a cylinder is dependent on how much force it has not how much flow it receieves.
Force=Mass*acceleration
When the valve is opened the actuator will accelerate if there is a net force. It will accelerate until the net force is 0. This applies to servo systems and your press systems.
Servo and Proportional valve controlled cylinder that use a Symetrical Spool (EQUAL FLOW PATHS BETWEEN PUMP AND CYLINDERS PORTS) are Flow Restricted. That means the greater the Rod Diameter the greater the flow difference and also Back Pressure between Extending and Retracting motion. Therefore, raising pressure can attain greater speed since it overcomes the Greater Back Pressure while retracting and force more oil through the Servo Valves Restricted Orifice.
Yes, but the ratio of the extend to retract speeds is sqrt((CapArea*SupplyPressureWhileExtening)/(RodArea*SupplyPressure WileRetracting));
This formula assume the load is zero. If the pressure is pushing down and the load must be taken into account then the ratio formula is
sqrt((CapArea*SupplyPressureWhileExtening+Load)/(RodArea*SupplyPressure WileRetracting-Load));
On a servo system the supply pressure should not change much whether the system is extending or retract. To make it fit you applications I only need to have a Ps
ext and a Ps
ret or a more general Ps(t) which is the supply pressure as a function of time. That way one can see how the gain changes as a function of distance moved and load changes.
However, a cylinder circuit using valves that do not restrict flow often use oversize Rods to return a cylinder to its start position fast while using a low volume pump.
So how does the oil escape on the cap side? There must be big valves to let the oil escape easily so the back pressure does't build up.
In my area there are some Trim Presses in a Diecast plant that have 8" Bore Cylinders with 7" Dia. Rods for fast return. They also use a Free Fall Extend to the work and a Pre-Fill valve to fill the Cap End of the cylinder as it fast advances. The presses use a small pump and motor and have very quick cycle times.
That is a smart way to do it because otherwise the cap side would cavitate, this trick is used with servo systems too.
There are a couple of 50" Bore 2,500 Ton presses, 2.5 miles from where I live, that have a 48.875 Rod with a similar setup to the Trim Presses and also use the large Rod for fast return and reduced cycle time at decreased flow. On the Retract portion of the press the Rod End is receiving 370 GPM while the Blind End is sending almost 9,000 GPM back to tank through (2) 12" and (1) 8" Pre-Fll valves. It returns 70" in about 8 Seconds.
You have different valves on the top and bottom so you effectively have different valve constants. This means the Kvpl is different when extending and retracting too.
Any Cylinder that is not Flow Restricted will always Retract faster than Extend when receiving the same flow.
NO!!!! Look at the equation in the PDF. You are looking at a specific case. Just because a few presses you have seen work that way because you designed them that way doesn't mean all presses are the same. I bet you can't tell me what the flow constants are for those valves or what the system pressure is when extending versus retracting.
If there isn't enough force the press will not move. This gets back to Alaric's problem of last week. His press didn't have enough pressure to move the press even though it had the flow capability to move it. THIS is why I got the answer quickly and ruined Alaric's fun ( My hat is off to Mildrone too he typed faster whereas I was writing a length post until I saw his answer ).
In your case you have different valve flow constants while extending and retracting AND you have different supply pressure when extending and retracting.
Force makes it go. Flow just equalizes the pressure difference across the valve. You have admitted as much in your example. The force of gravity is making the system go down and the oil is sucked from the tank to equalize the pressure so there is no cavitation.
They also have more force on the Extend Stroke since the Area on the Blind End is greater.
That depends in your systems the pumps don't maintain the same system pressure while extending and retracting. That is why I was careful to use SupplyPressureWhileExtending and Supply PressureWileRetracting. In your systems the pumps can't maintain a constant pressure while extending. Therefore the SupplyPressureWhileExtending is often much less that the SupplyPressureWhileRetracting. This is why you see the system retract faster. Your system doesn't violate the laws of motion. My equation in the PDF file assumes that an accumulator will keep the servo systems supply pressure relatively constant. In your systems you don't keep the supply pressure constant.
I think your design and technique is good. It is obviously efficient. I just object to the way you assume that because your system doesn't behave the way a servo system that Newton's laws of motion doesn't apply.