Newbie Oil Production Automation Question!

[DwSoFt]

Ok so the Click isnt Div2 Rated but the DirectLogix units are.
They require you buy the software where as the click has free software.

 

[cmoney]

Ok so the Click isnt Div2 Rated but the DirectLogix units are.
They require you buy the software where as the click has free software.

Thanks for looking at that. I will hit the site and compare the PLCs.

If the primary concern on using a standard or basic rated PLC is keeping it 10 Ft. away from the tank/unit, that should be no problem. Obviously I will have them inside a nema rated enclosure but I can keep them at that distance no problem. I assume the same thing with instrumentation like transmitters, level sensors, switches?

H2S gas monitoring is not an issue. Meaning there is no need to monitor the actual gas. Out here we get H2S (rotten egg smell gas) with some oil production, I believe due to the depth. It can kill you if levels are high enough and it can be pretty hard on equipment if directly exposed. I've seen it eat up stainless.

I notice that some PLCs have Ethernet ports. I imagine this is for placing it on the network and configuring. Now is Modbus TCP the protocol/language that I need to make sure all my PLCs use so that they may all communicate on the IP network?

 

[g.mccormick]

I would use click plc. At the remote sites, you would want to write a watchdog procedure so that if the master plc stops toggling a bit it can shutdown the site or do whatever is deemed necessary.

 

[DwSoFt]

Thanks for looking at that. I will hit the site and compare the PLCs.

If the primary concern on using a standard or basic rated PLC is keeping it 10 Ft. away from the tank/unit, that should be no problem. Obviously I will have them inside a nema rated enclosure but I can keep them at that distance no problem. I assume the same thing with instrumentation like transmitters, level sensors, switches?

there is no real way to have the sensors 10ft away bc they interact with the process itself.
but yes if the cabinet meets the proper distances then you are ok.

H2S gas monitoring is not an issue. Meaning there is no need to monitor the actual gas. Out here we get H2S (rotten egg smell gas) with some oil production, I believe due to the depth. It can kill you if levels are high enough and it can be pretty hard on equipment if directly exposed. I've seen it eat up stainless.

I meant the actual Gas flow for production accounting, but if its not needed then no problem. I deal with H2S here as well.

I notice that some PLCs have Ethernet ports. I imagine this is for placing it on the network and configuring. Now is Modbus TCP the protocol/language that I need to make sure all my PLCs use so that they may all communicate on the IP network?

You can have multiple protocols over the network as long as your master equipment can handle all the protocols used.

 

[cmoney]

I plan on doing a flow meter on the inlet of the gun barrel to get an account for barrels per day/production.

Based on what I've learned so far, I'm thinking IP Radios ($100 a piece) with nema rated enclosures and a click PLC for the remote sites which include the pumping units, salt water pumps and tanks. I'll try to find good pricing on the flow meter, pressure transmitters and tank level sensors.

At the primary location I'll do a click PLC, possibly a more robust, but it really isn't going to be needing any additional I/O than the other, it will just be handling more of the control code. Maybe do a Beijer HMI Screen that will handle the notifications and remote access into the system with a WAN Cellular router.

That's kind of the direction I'm leaning towards right now based on ya'lls feedback.

I just don't see spending $700 on a radio setup with a $1,000 PLC on a pumping unit site that basically requires just a shutdown signal. Are you aware of any other cost effective pumping unit shutdown radio solutions? I won't have a lot in it now with a simple click PLC and IP Radio. Under $500 with enclosure and the hardware.

Not sure if anyone is familiar with XBee technology by Digi but I'm learning more about their wireless technology to possibly develop an even more cost effective solution to turning off the production units, mostly just as a kill tied to a high tank alarm.

 

[diat150]

you may want to look at the area classifications. alot of the equipment you mention is not class 1 div 2 rated. if something happens I would hate for them to come back on you.

also, if you need remote monitoring for this site for trending, alerting, remote monitoring, shoot me a pm. I do a month to month.

also, look into idec. they are only a little more expensive than automation direct but are rated class 1 div 2.

 

[DwSoFt]

I plan on doing a flow meter on the inlet of the gun barrel to get an account for barrels per day/production.Radio. Under $500 with enclosure and the hardware.

what I currently deal with here for Oil accounting is a 2 or 3 phase seperator. then u can account the oil water and gas however you sould like seperately. multiphase accurate measurement can be tricky and expensive. another way can be just with tank levels. and then a water cut sample

 

[DwSoFt]

you may want to look at the area classifications. alot of the equipment you mention is not class 1 div 2 rated. if something happens I would hate for them to come back on you.

also, if you need remote monitoring for this site for trending, alerting, remote monitoring, shoot me a pm. I do a month to month.

also, look into idec. they are only a little more expensive than automation direct but are rated class 1 div 2.

Thats what i was trying to say earlier. But you can get around that by being outside the classification area. more work on installation is all.

 

[cmoney]

Not sure if you guys are familiar with signal-fire but I just stumbled across their website. They offer some pretty cool solutions for shut-offs and wireless monitoring. Of course I can do the same thing with a radio and PLC but I did send them a request for pricing on their gear. www.signal-fire.com

They offer an Ethernet based interface module that would work with an IP network.

And I certainly want to stear clear of any violations so prefer to stay with the div2 stuff but for some of the pumping sites, if all I need to do is stay clear 10 Ft that works for me. I'll do some research on local regs.

 

[danw]

I'm thinking IP Radios ($100 a piece)

turning off the production units, mostly just as a kill tied to a high tank alarm.

Up front, I dislike 2.4GHz WiFi band radios. Too unreliable, no punch through like 900MHz. 2.4Ghz is inherently faster, but for industrial formatted data (relatively small), 900MHz is truly a more robust and reliable carrier.

You need to find out what the consequences are if your wireless network goes down. What happens if your shut down alarm doesn't get through? What are the consequences?

The consequences could be far more costly than if .jpg's, .docs and .xls get delayed. If the lack of a shutdown signal getting through creates an overflow incident, with clean-up costs and potential regulatory fines, and with someone at the top looking to point a finger to assign liability, fault and blame then what you've 'saved' the company in cheap radio system will, shall we say, lack appreciation.

There's a reason people pay more for more robust wireless than WiFi.

 

[cmoney]

Up front, I dislike 2.4GHz WiFi band radios. Too unreliable, no punch through like 900MHz. 2.4Ghz is inherently faster, but for industrial formatted data (relatively small), 900MHz is truly a more robust and reliable carrier.

You need to find out what the consequences are if your wireless network goes down. What happens if your shut down alarm doesn't get through? What are the consequences?

The consequences could be far more costly than if .jpg's, .docs and .xls get delayed. If the lack of a shutdown signal getting through creates an overflow incident, with clean-up costs and potential regulatory fines, and with someone at the top looking to point a finger to assign liability, fault and blame then what you've 'saved' the company in cheap radio system will, shall we say, lack appreciation.

There's a reason people pay more for more robust wireless than WiFi.

I agree. 900 Mhz offers better penetration which is the frequency range I plan on using here. 2.4 and definitely 5 Ghz LoS is more important.

I disagree that a serial radio in the 900 MHz range is going to be more reliable or robust than a 900 Mhz IP Radio I install, but of course that is debatable.

Neither radio is licensed so both susceptible to interference. But I hear you knowing the consequences communications loss should be looked at with both serial or IP network, regardless which is used. If coded correctly, the PLC should be able to handle the "checking" of the kill signals that were sent. And if they did for some reason fail, be sent again. Monitoring of the remote sites network connectivity should be coded as well with alerts sent on communication loss.

I suppose what I'm getting at is I have just as much faith in the IP Radio networks I've installed as I do in a more costly serial radio that runs on the same frequency.

I hear what your saying though. The same IP radio I am talking about using, when packaged in an industrial enclosure, is essentially the same price as a serial radio that you are speaking of.

I need to decide on the PLCs to use here as well as the instrumentation and get my hands dirty. The PLC coding is what I will "battle" the most on this.

 

[cmoney]

I also agree that "WiFi" should not be used in this type of application!