Stephen Luft
Lifetime Supporting Member
Part 1 - Post 1 - Response to original post
I have been following this thread for some time. Before responding, I wanted to do some research and prayer, seeking direction for this response. I seem to have a talent in igniting a fire of passions amongst other members. This post will probably be no different.
With that said, I will post two separate responses. The first will deal specifically with the original post. The second will address the responses.
In reviewing the original post, I can identify four specific issues
As you call him "AC" and how he initiated this situation, as it stands now.
Your current situation stems from a letter by "AC" to your boss. You are correct in that it was a cowardly way to deal with an issue. In proper order, "AC" had issues with you specifically, he should have come to you directly, to address them. Jesus Himself states during His sermon on the mount in Matthew 5:23 - 24
"Therefore, if you bring a gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there, before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift."
If after he went to you to address these issues, if you did nothing, then, Jesus says in Matthew 18:15 - 18
Moreover, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained a brother. But, if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."
There is an order established by God in dealing with conflict amongst members of His church.
It is your right to confront your accuser. If claims and accusations were made in the letter to your boss, then you have every right to address him directly.
If your boss is a believer in God’s Word as being absolute, he should have brought both of you together so that you could directly confront your accuser and address the issues stated in the letter. If your boss didn’t know the identity of the letter writer, then he had two options…find out who wrote the letter and bring both of you together to address the allegations. If he could not determine who the author was, he should have dismissed it. If the author was not willing to put his name to the letter, then the letter offers no credibility.
Your current living arrangements
The whole "living in sin" label has been blown way out of proportion. There are two perspectives at work here.
God’s perspective
Man’s perspective
Let’s first look at man’s perspective. Marriage is a contract entered into by one man and one woman. The ceremony can be conducted by anyone who has a state license to conduct the execution of this type of contract.
God’s perspective is different. Marriage is a gift that He gave to us. The first marriage was between Adam and Eve. Eve was a gift from God to Adam, because God said
"It is not good that the man should be alone, I will make him an helper, comparable to him. Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all the cattle, to the birds of the air, and every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him." And the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept, and He (God) took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, he made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said, this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed. Genesis 2:18 - 25
God didn’t stand before Adam and Eve and perform a wedding ceremony as we know it today. There was no contract. God simply gave Adam an incredible gift.
Genesis 29 recounts Jacob’s marriage to Leah and Rachel. The consummation of the marriage, in God’s eyes is what bound both Jacob and Leah and Jacob and Rachel together in marriage. In God’s eyes, once you have had relations with that person of the opposite ***, you are married. The ceremony is a celebration of the joining of two people together…it is nothing more than that.
I know tangents can go wild…so don’t bring up the two wives issue, it is not relative to this discussion.
In God’s eyes, marriage is simple…we have made it complicated. Throughout His word, you will find nothing about how to get married…because marriage is a gift from God. What you will find in His word relates to the conduct in marriage that He is most concerned. The last thing God wants is for His gift to be defiled.
Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say? This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear. So when the continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He that is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone. And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest, even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. John 8:1-11
Jesus turned the situation around, posing the question to all of us. Under the law, if you were found in adultery, you were stoned to death. Because no one was without sin except Jesus, no one could truly judge her, except Him. In doing so, He did not condemn her, but simply told her to stop doing what she was doing.
As believers, we are to respect the leadership and laws that are in place:
Then Pilate said to Him, are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have the power to crucify you and the power to release You? Jesus said "You could have no power at all against me unless it had been given to you from above…" John 19:10
In another instance when confronted by the Pharisees:
Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Teacher, we know that You are true and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of man. Tell us, therefore what do You think> Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or Not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?" Show Me the tax money. So they brought Him a denarius. And He said "Whose image and inscription is this?" They said to Him Caesar’s. And He said to them, Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesars, and to God the things that are God." Matthew 22:15 - 21
Therefore, in that you are probably already married in the eye’s of God, it would probably be in your best interest to make your marriage legal also. Unfortunately, the church’s view on marriage is more from a legal perspective. In getting married legally, you will satisfy your boss and be able to move forward.
If you are engaged, do you have a ring and a date? If not, then you aren’t really engaged.
In the Jewish faith, when a man and a woman get married, they sign what is called a katuba…a marriage contract that is done in private with the Rabbi and witnesses. Once that is signed, they are legally married. The ceremony, is after the signing and is a celebration for family and friends.
I have been following this thread for some time. Before responding, I wanted to do some research and prayer, seeking direction for this response. I seem to have a talent in igniting a fire of passions amongst other members. This post will probably be no different.
With that said, I will post two separate responses. The first will deal specifically with the original post. The second will address the responses.
In reviewing the original post, I can identify four specific issues
- As you call him "AC" and how he initiated this situation, as it stands now.
- Your Current Living Arrangements
- The Response of Your Boss
- Your Current Walk With Our Creator
As you call him "AC" and how he initiated this situation, as it stands now.
Your current situation stems from a letter by "AC" to your boss. You are correct in that it was a cowardly way to deal with an issue. In proper order, "AC" had issues with you specifically, he should have come to you directly, to address them. Jesus Himself states during His sermon on the mount in Matthew 5:23 - 24
"Therefore, if you bring a gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there, before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift."
If after he went to you to address these issues, if you did nothing, then, Jesus says in Matthew 18:15 - 18
Moreover, if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained a brother. But, if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."
There is an order established by God in dealing with conflict amongst members of His church.
It is your right to confront your accuser. If claims and accusations were made in the letter to your boss, then you have every right to address him directly.
If your boss is a believer in God’s Word as being absolute, he should have brought both of you together so that you could directly confront your accuser and address the issues stated in the letter. If your boss didn’t know the identity of the letter writer, then he had two options…find out who wrote the letter and bring both of you together to address the allegations. If he could not determine who the author was, he should have dismissed it. If the author was not willing to put his name to the letter, then the letter offers no credibility.
Your current living arrangements
The whole "living in sin" label has been blown way out of proportion. There are two perspectives at work here.
God’s perspective
Man’s perspective
Let’s first look at man’s perspective. Marriage is a contract entered into by one man and one woman. The ceremony can be conducted by anyone who has a state license to conduct the execution of this type of contract.
God’s perspective is different. Marriage is a gift that He gave to us. The first marriage was between Adam and Eve. Eve was a gift from God to Adam, because God said
"It is not good that the man should be alone, I will make him an helper, comparable to him. Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all the cattle, to the birds of the air, and every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him." And the Lord caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept, and He (God) took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, he made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said, this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed. Genesis 2:18 - 25
God didn’t stand before Adam and Eve and perform a wedding ceremony as we know it today. There was no contract. God simply gave Adam an incredible gift.
Genesis 29 recounts Jacob’s marriage to Leah and Rachel. The consummation of the marriage, in God’s eyes is what bound both Jacob and Leah and Jacob and Rachel together in marriage. In God’s eyes, once you have had relations with that person of the opposite ***, you are married. The ceremony is a celebration of the joining of two people together…it is nothing more than that.
I know tangents can go wild…so don’t bring up the two wives issue, it is not relative to this discussion.
In God’s eyes, marriage is simple…we have made it complicated. Throughout His word, you will find nothing about how to get married…because marriage is a gift from God. What you will find in His word relates to the conduct in marriage that He is most concerned. The last thing God wants is for His gift to be defiled.
Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say? This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear. So when the continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He that is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone. And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest, even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more. John 8:1-11
Jesus turned the situation around, posing the question to all of us. Under the law, if you were found in adultery, you were stoned to death. Because no one was without sin except Jesus, no one could truly judge her, except Him. In doing so, He did not condemn her, but simply told her to stop doing what she was doing.
As believers, we are to respect the leadership and laws that are in place:
Then Pilate said to Him, are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have the power to crucify you and the power to release You? Jesus said "You could have no power at all against me unless it had been given to you from above…" John 19:10
In another instance when confronted by the Pharisees:
Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Teacher, we know that You are true and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of man. Tell us, therefore what do You think> Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or Not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?" Show Me the tax money. So they brought Him a denarius. And He said "Whose image and inscription is this?" They said to Him Caesar’s. And He said to them, Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesars, and to God the things that are God." Matthew 22:15 - 21
Therefore, in that you are probably already married in the eye’s of God, it would probably be in your best interest to make your marriage legal also. Unfortunately, the church’s view on marriage is more from a legal perspective. In getting married legally, you will satisfy your boss and be able to move forward.
If you are engaged, do you have a ring and a date? If not, then you aren’t really engaged.
In the Jewish faith, when a man and a woman get married, they sign what is called a katuba…a marriage contract that is done in private with the Rabbi and witnesses. Once that is signed, they are legally married. The ceremony, is after the signing and is a celebration for family and friends.
